Q: Do you know any case of a Sudanese refugee student going to a private primary or public secondary school in Egypt?
A: Yes, I know many of them. They are mostly South Sudanese. When they arrive here many apply to attend private Egyptian schools. I have a little girl in my house going to a private primary school that follows the Egyptian curriculum. So it is not a problem. It is easy if your papers are okay, you can apply. But you know, sometimes refugees do not have the right papers, like the certificate that you have finished one particular level and that you need to take another level. Most of the refugees have no papers, they are without anything. So you know, even in Orman school they would not accept a refugee that does not have its papers fixed.
Q: And what about placement tests?
A: They also do placement tests, they do exams to know your level, but it is something additional to the fixed papers, to your certificate. We do not even try to bring them because they won’t accept it, and it costs a lot of money. For example, I have a case that one student skipped one year without studying because the parents could not afford the school fees, so during that year the parents were just working. With the money saved, they put the student in Orman school, but as he had skipped one year, the child was put in a lower level. You know this is also for the parents to not waste money.
Q: Do they pay the same school fees?
A: The refugees in private schools pay exactly the same as Egyptians. In the past, they used to get help from the UNHCR, but the UNHCR stopped paying to refugees going to private schools. Because they said that if they can afford this money to pay for a private school, they do not need help, so it is better to spend money on those that really need it.
Q: And do you know any refugee that goes to a public school?
A: Some public schools take kids, but not so much. We always try to put our kids in private schools that follow the Egyptian curriculum.
Q: Which are the main private schools' refugees from the South Sudanese community go to?
A: I know Orman Smart school here in Maadi. We have a lot of kids from South Sudan in this school, and there are also other refugees from Ethiopia and Eritrea. This school used to be low cost like 7.000 EgP, but now it is 14.000 EgP. It is expensive for refugees but some can afford it if they get help from family outside Egypt. All Sudanese help each other, sometimes if the school is expensive, or help with rent, or someone is sick, so we always help each other.
Q: How many refugee students does the Orman Smart school have?
A: In total maybe 20 refugees, in one class maybe two, in another class one, in yet another class three.
Q: Which curriculum are they following?
A: They follow the Egyptian curriculum in English, but the subjects of religion, Arabic language, and social studies are taken in Arabic. The rest is in English and they also have to choose a second language between French, Spanish, or German.
Q: Do you know if Orman Smart School gives economic assistance to refugee students?
A: I heard about one South Sudanese girl who is really good. She is still in grade 11 or 12, and they gave her a full scholarship for studying at a University in America. This is the first case. I didn’t know that Orman school could do that. She is not a refugee but, I think that they would also support a refugee student.
Q: How do you feel about public universities for refugees?
A: The problem with education is that they neither know the Arabic language, the system nor anything. Me, Boyenyo, and Imanuel, her husband, were colleagues at Zagazig University. So for us, it was okay because we were born in North Sudan and we speak Arabic fluently, so it was not a problem for us. We could follow classes and deal easily with Egyptians. But those that come from South Sudan have difficulties in Arabic, so when they go to Egyptian universities, it is hard.
Q: Do the North Sudanese pay fewer fees for entering university than the South Sudanese?
A: No, in every university there is a Sudanese department that manages all things related to the Sudanese coming to university, and this includes North and South Sudanese, so they pay the same. Some of them even have scholarships. For example, the South Sudanese government offers around 100 scholarships for students to come to Egypt to study. It makes no difference if they are refugees or not. Some of them are already in Egypt with refugee status. Others have families in Egypt, some of them are refugees, but they too can obtain a scholarship.
Q: I heard you were at the protest at the Mustafa Mahmoud square in 2005, can you further elaborate on that?
A: Yes, I and Boyenyo used to work together. We had an NGO called Musaidine that helped unaccompanied minors. We were addressing rumors in South Sudan that claimed that if they would go to Egypt someone would come with a plane and take them to a better place. They were just playing with their mind, but you know these children were staying during the demonstrations at the square waiting for the plane to come. The same happened with other Sudanese so they were on the streets, staying there, living there. This is why the government was upset with them. We tried hard to help and get them away from the square, but they did not listen. The Egyptian police at a certain moment kicked them out, beat them, and some of them even died. So we were trying to help them. The refugee demonstrators on the square thought that someone was giving us money to make them go away, so they did not listen to us, they treated us badly, but we were helping them, and also the kids. We did not want the kids to go there, no bed, no food for three months. That is how long these demonstrations lasted.
Q: And why did the Egyptian government respond in that way?
A: The Egyptian government tried other ways to end the demonstrations. They talked to UNHCR, and embassies, asking them to take their people, but you know what the Sudanese and South Sudanese embassies told Egyptian authorities? Do whatever you want with those people. So they used violence to chase them away, they hit them, and they used water cannons.
Q: Do you know any other private school that accepts refugees and that is ‘affordable’?
A: Yes, in Zahra al-Maadi there are private schools that accept refugees. I know a girl that goes to a school there. I know also another one here on road 105 called Al-Amal school. They also take refugees, but those refugees come with papers and certificates. And then we have St. Joseph in Nasr city, they are private and follow the Egyptian curriculum.
Q: Do you know the school fees they ask for?
A: It ranges between 7.000 EgP and 14.000 EgP. They even have a bus taking them from home to school and the other way round. I think they pay 7.000 EgP for primary and 14.000 EgP for secondary school.
Q: And once they finish a private secondary school, what happens?
A: Then, they take the Egyptian exam (Sanawiya Amma) for entering university. They really do not need to pay so much for it as it is a government exam. It is not like the Sudanese exam, the Sudanese exam is expensive. For grade 8 it is now 130 dollars for North Sudanese and 150 dollars for South Sudanese.
Q: Do you know if the prices differ between the one taken in grade 8 and the one taken in grade 12?
A: I do not know, this is what I have paid now. I paid it last week for this girl, and I know the price for South Sudanese because the girl of one of our cousins also is going to do it. It is a lot, in Sudan, it was for free.
Q: And what do you think is the difference between the Sudanese curriculum and the Egyptian one?
A: You know, the only difference is that in Egypt they have to memorize everything. When they go to the exam they write it and then they forget everything. But you know in the Sudanese curriculum you do not need to memorize, you do not forget because they want you to understand. And you know, in the Sudanese curriculum in history we know the history about the whole world, Africa, Arab Countries, Sudan, Europe, America, everything. But in the Egyptian curriculum, it is just Egypt, they just know about their own history. And for me, it has been 30 years ago since I took my exam, and I still remember.
Q: Are the exams difficult?
A: They are difficult if you do not study. If you study it is easy. And you know some of the children come from a difficult context and for them it is more difficult to concentrate and study. And the teachers are not qualified, most of them finish high school and come to teach. The learning centers take anyone for teaching as long as they know how to write and read.
Q: Would you recommend your students to do secondary education in a learning center that follows the Sudanese curriculum?
A: Well, you know Sakakini in Abassiya, we started it in our time, it is an organized school, all the teachers there are graduated, but many other learning centers are not organized, the teachers are not qualified, there is no space. Those are not schools, the kids come from difficult situations, and they cannot stay in such an environment. Obviously, they will fail that way in the Sudanese exam at the Embassy. You see those students and they seem like gangs. Some of them are in grade 8 and are like 20 years old.
Q: Would you recommend your students to do secondary education in an Egyptian governmental school?
A: No, they are like 100 people in a classroom, they also do not teach well, and even the Egyptian families complain about it. In Egyptian schools they are very strict, it is all about learning, and they do not do creative activities such as drawing. But private schools are good. In Orman, there are around 18, 19, or 20 students in a class, they give you transportation, and if you do not have the money you can pay it three times. For secondary school, you pay 10.000 EgP at the beginning of the year, and then 2.000 EgP and then 2.000 EgP again. You know, in Orman there are also problems, the children fight with each other.
Q: Do you think that South Sudanese refugees face racism?
A: Yes, a lot, but this is everywhere, public, private, or at learning centers. You know they are in this age, teenagers, and the teachers know it and the school tries to punish them, but it is also a thing of their age.
