Interview with Bishop Yohanna Qulta on the risk of a civil war in Egypt

Language: 
English
Sent On: 
Thu, 2013-08-15
Year: 
2013
Newsletter Number: 
44

In the Virgin Mary Cathedral for Catholic Copts, situated only a few streets behind the area of Rābaah al-‘Adawīyyah, I met with Bishop Yohanna Qulta on the 13th of August, following an article he wrote, “The Impossibility of Civil War in Egypt,” in which he stated that he did not fear a civil war in Egypt.Read the original article in Arabic hereRead the English translation here.

 

Photo credit: Copts United
Bishop Qulta is the Vice Patriarch of the Catholic Church in Egypt, a member of the Baīt Al ‘Ayīla in al- Azhar, and a member of the Papal Committee for Interreligious Dialogue between the Azhar and the Vatican.  He was a member of the Constituent Assembly that drafted the 2012 Constitution of Egypt. In spite of the ongoing sit-in only a few streets away, he seemed calm and confident. Using quotes from the Qur'ān more than he used quotes of the Bible, he argued for the importance of civil liberty. He argued that the icon of Islamic culture and history is that it never forced other people it occupied to convert and that the Qur'ān gave the right of freedom obelief even to atheists. Upon being asked   how the current situation should be resolved and if the sit-in should be dispersed, he argued, “Let the people in Rāba’ah continue their sit in for ten years, the government should focus on the economy instead”. On the closure of the religious television channels he was no less resolute in his call for liberty saying, “No channel should be closed down, no pen should be broken.” Below is Bishop Qulta’s complete interview. 

 

AWR: How do you explain what has happened in Minya, Suhag, and Beni Suef, the statements of al-Qaeda (al-Qā’ida) accusing Copts of wanting to build a state in Southern Egypt? Why is all this happening at this time in particular? What is your explanation?

 

BQ: The Arab World, including  Egypt, still lives in the Middle Ages, these are called the ages of war and religion. [In those ages] wars were waged in the name of religion and the value of human beings was nil. The value was only to religion and God, even though that is God that gave humans value. Respect of God is in reality respect for fellow human beings and respect for human beings is (a form of) respect for God. We inherited from the Middle Ages this mentality of  war and religion as well as discrimination. Until now, all the Arabic movies portray the doorman as men of color and the Azharite Shaykhs as foolish in novels and soap operas. There is a sort of  superficial external religiosity that we have inherited.

 

How do we get rid of this? We had a will to get rid of this in the January 25 Revolution and June 30Revolution. The split is not a split among the people, it’s a split among minds and mentalities. There is a mentality that wants to reestablish the Caliphate. What Caliphate? The Caliphate has fallen since the days of Muawīyyah Ibn ‘Abī Sūfīān whose son has inherited leadership and he kept the title of the Caliph in order to maintain power. I am writing an article on the Islamic Caliphate and the Christian Papacy. This is a heritage. The Islamic Caliphate lost its religious meaning with Muawīyyah, but it remained a façade to ensure dominance. We are now in an attempt to get out of the Middle Ages. Will Egypt get out of the Middle Ages and after it the Arab countries? I am certain that Egypt will get rid of this mentality after considerable sacrifices.

 

AWR: So how do you explain the escalation against Copts now?

 

BQ: To ask what the different phenomena that are happening in Egypt today is an important question. After the Ottoman colonial occupation, that stayed for centuries and humiliated the Arabic World, as it wanted to eliminate the Arab language and embed the Turkish language instead, the British and French colonial occupations started. When the Arab States became independent, it remained an incomplete independence. The Arab World did not benefit from independence for 60 years after its independence as its economy was always dependent on the economy of the West.

 

In that context, some Shaykhs came out and said that the solution is that we must “go back to God”. What is that suppose to mean? Weren’t Muslims and Christians praying before that time. The idea of going back to God crystallized with the emergence of the Muslim Brotherhood and  their leader Hassan Al Banna (1906-1949) and with the ideas of  Sayyīd Qutb (1906-1966). It is horrific if you read the book of Sayyīd Qutb, M’aālim al-Tarīq (Signs on the Road), it denotes that all the world is infidel and in jāhilīyah (ignorance). Which golden era do they want us to return to? It is said that there are three Caliphs that died as martyrs (‘Umar Ibn Al Khattāb, Alī Ibn Abī Tālib, ‘Uthmān ‘Ibn ‘Affān) and ‘Ābū Bakr was poisoned. When was the Golden era that they are dreaming of? Who is it with? Muawīyyah moved the Caliphate from Medina to Damascus. The Abbasids imitated King Khosrau, Caesar and the Roman Pope. When Hulagu Khan (1217-1265) reached Baghdad it is said that he found 4,000 concubines at the palace of the Caliph. So where is that golden era of Islam and that of Christianity? All ages have a golden side and a “metal” side to it [YG: meaning that all ages have times of strength and times of weakness].

 

There is nothing such as the “golden era” of Christianity or Islam. There is an era called the Renaissance era in which there is progress and development of awareness then a decline. They believed their own idea and said that the solution is in sharī’ah. I ask here, which sharī’ah? Thesharī’ah as interpreted by who? Sunnis? Shiites? Jihadis? The same thing with Christianity. There is no one Christianity nor one Islam. In Christianity, is it the Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestantsharī’ah? The Protestants have more than 500 denominations in the U.S. So when are we going to get rid of this ‘religious complex’ that we are suffering from. There is a difference between religion which is prayer, fasting, charity and faith which is a moral stand. When the Qur’ān praised the prophet, it did not tell him you fast and you pray, it stated, “You have great morals.”

 

The Muslim Brotherhood organization failed and will continue to fail because it is against history, against the liberty seeking nature of humans and against civilization that is trying to be inclusive of all humanity. What is happening against the Christians in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon as elsewhere in the Arab World is an attempt to shake society to make it seem that the Egyptian and Arab stated are failed states and the successful state is Israel. These attackers, without them knowing, are weakening the Arab countries and strengthening Israel.

 

AWR: You mentioned in an article on May 5, 2013 in al-Masrī al-Yawm (Read article here) that there is a plan to eliminate Christians in the East? Who has this plan? Are these people represented in Egypt? Is this what he sees happening now?

 

BQ: There is no plan to eliminate Christians but there are some ideas from some Imams such as ‘Ibn Taīmīyah and Sayyīd Qutb. The Christians have suffered a lot from the Crusades as it instilled hatred among Muslims and Christians. All the extremist imams, ‘Ibn Taīmīyah and Māwdūdī were all alive during the Crusades. Sayyīd Qutb has also examined ‘Ibn Taīmīyah’s texts, and was influenced by it. We are facing a weird phenomenon, a dream of a Caliphate and the dominance of a religious current, this is against history.

 

Discriminating against Christians is an ideological and strategic mistake by extremist groups. I tell them: you are destroying an icon of Islam, the only religion that did not plan on eliminating other people. Occupiers usually requested the occupied people convert their religions to those of their occupiers. Muslims did not do that. They are deleting this icon in Islamic history.

 

AWR: There was a denial by the Catholic Bishop of Mār Jirjis Church in Suhag that al-Qaeda flag was raised on the church? What is your interpretation? 

 

BQ: They raised al-Qaeda flag on churches, mosques and even on the police station in Nasr City. The bishop was probably afraid from al-Qaeda. My issue is not that they raise their flags on a church; the churches and the mosques are not more important than a police station. For me raining the al-Qaeda flag on the police station in Nasr City here is more is more dangerous than raising the flag on a Church or on a mosque.

 

AWR: What do you think of the statements of some Coptic movements that the state is not doing what it should to protect the Copts? What could the state in current circumstances do but is not doing so?

 

BQ: First, I refuse the term “Coptic issues”, we don’t have Coptic issues we have Egyptian issues. That Copts are granted their rights while Muslims are deprived of them is not acceptable to me and indeed impossible to achieve. That the Copts undergo development while the Muslims live miserably is unacceptable and will not happen.  We both rise and develop together or not. I am a believing Christian and I hope to die as a Christian, but Muslims face more injustice than Christians. The rate of poverty and unemployment among Muslims is higher than that the average rate. Here the view must be to Egypt as a whole and not to Copts only. That is why the notion of constructing a Coptic state is stupid. There is no street or ally in Egypt that does not have both Muslims and Christians living together. It is impossible that Egypt gets divided. Egyptians are indivisible. What I mean is that if they make a Coptic state, I will choose to live with the Muslims.

 

AWR: Can the state do more than it is currently doing. Is it doing what it should? Or is the state discriminating also?

 

BQ: The state discriminates. The state cannot be an ideal state all of a sudden. But let us together seek to develop, Muslims and Christians. It will take time till the state has a nondiscriminatory constitution, laws, wages. Do not forget that it took Europe from the 15th century the Renaissance era till the 19th  century of industrialization. So far we only had 2 or 3 years. But the responsibility of the elites, intellectuals, writers and artists is to raise the awareness of the people. In my view, the Arab World will not develop until we eliminate ignorance from it.

 

AWR: What role should be given to religion in politics? Should they be split or not? Where is Egypt heading to in that respect?

 

BQ: The regime of the prophet was a civic regime not a religious one. It did not apply the hudūd(religious punishment) literally. ‘Umar Ibn Al Khattāb violated the hadd  (religious punishment) in the time of famine. ‘Umar Ibn Al Khattāb called in the son of ‘Amr Ibn Al ‘Aās and allowed the son of the Copt that had complained against him to take his avenge. There was a sense of a civic state. I mean by that the hadīth, “You have better knowledge (of a technical skill) in the affairs of the world”. Respect of religion without tainting it with politics  was the beginning of modern states.  To those that say that Islam is a religion and a state. I tell them, well what if you get an ignorant ruler, then the problem is not in religion but rather in the ruler.

 

I call for the separation of religion and state but not separating religion from society. There is a difference. I am for having a state whose laws are civic laws, but we must also nourish society with the spirit of religion and ethics.

 

AWR: As a member of the Constitutional Assembly in 2012, what do you say to movements that refuse to have a member of the clergy representing Copts in the constitutional committee? 

 

BQ: I am against having Muslim or Christians clerics in the Constituent Assembly and I am one of them.  There is no need for them.

 

AWR: But why does it happen?

 

BQ: Because we are still living as I told you before in the Middle Ages… religion, religion, religion.

 

AWR: So what do you say to the Christian movements that are protesting against clerics in the constituent assembly?

 

BQ: I tell them, you are right, and your cause is just and I support it. But the timing is wrong. Please call down, youth. It is you who will build the future, but please take it step by step. I have high respect for the Prime Minister Mr. Hazem Beblawi (Hāzim El Biblāwī), Mr. Mohammad el-Baradei (Barad’ī), and Mr. Hamdeen Sabbahi (Hamdīn Sabāhī). I wished that in a government of say 30 ministers 25% of them would be youth. The ministries of sovereign powers (Interior, Foreign Affairs, and Defense) we can leave them to the elders to head, but the rest of the ministers can be youth. They can even be vice-ministers so that they can get training. Here is where we should start, not from protesting against clerics. 

 

AWR: The Catholic Church has requested cancelling Articles 3 and 219 of the Constitution. Why so? The Orthodox Church has only requested to amend Article 3, not abolish it all together. 

 

BQ: All churches have agreed to keep both the first and second articles of the constitution. The first that states the Arab Republic of Egypt is part of the Arab Community and the second that Islam is the state’s religion. There is no harm in that as I live, whether I like it or not in an Islamic society. The second article also states that the principles of sharī’ah form the main source of legislation. That is enough.  But our Salafī brethren wanted to add details. I replied to them on television. I told them this is very good but these further details should not be located in the constitution but in the books of jurisprudence.

 

AWR: But why was there a difference between the Orthodox and Catholic churches with respect to the third article, the Catholic Church wanted to abolish the third article altogether where the Orthodox church just wanted to amend it to include all religions not just the heavenly ones.

 

BQ: There was no difference in that. I am the one that in the 2012 Constituent Assembly that requested that all religions be included. I asked  about Baha’īs and atheists. Even the Qur’an gives the people the right to be atheist. I said that in the Committee of Liberties in the Constitutional Committee. One of the sheikhs asked me where in the Qur’an does it say that? I responded, with the Qur’anic verse, “let whosoever will, believe, and whosoever will, disbelieve”. Another told me that this verse came as a warning. A third Shaykh responded to the second. No it is not a warning, there is freedom. I was the one that requested that other religions be included. The churches wanted to compliment the other Shaykhs in the session so they accepted to have it at the three heavenly religions only. How would it harm them and what would anger them from anyone if he is an atheist.  God created a mind for everyone and everyone is granted freedom to choose. I insist, freedom of creed should be to everyone without any exceptions.

 

AWR: You stated in a recent article that the Egyptian personality has three main criteria “love for freedom, justice and peace”, you also said that the Egyptians do not know prejudice against a gender or ethnicity or a religion...

 

BQ: I am from Upper Egypt my culture is an Islamic culture. I lived in Upper Egypt, then I entered Cairo University learnt the Arabic language, took my PhD and then got the equivalent certificate from Sorbonne University. I lived this life. The simple Egyptian does not differentiate between  white or black. If he travels from Egypt for one week he will be craving to return, even if he lives in 5-star hotel. Geography has imposed on us to live in peace. The Egyptian army never launched an offensive war, it was always defensive. I remind Erdogan that one day Egypt approached Istanbul. I ask him not to mock at the Egyptian people or belittle them. I love Egypt and I value Egypt.

 

AWR: How do you explain extremism today in Egypt? How do we combat it?

 

BQ: There is an attempt to submerge Egypt’s human civilization,  Pharonic, Coptic  culture etc. Hundreds of word in Egyptian dialect is taken from the Coptic language. Traditions are the same for Muslims and Christians in the rural areas. They want to abolish this; they want to impose the Bedouin culture the era of niqāb and confine women. There is an attempt to oppress the other civilizations. This was the plan of the Muslim Brotherhood to change the mentality of Egyptians by changing the educational curricula and changing their sentiments through changing the culture and traditions.

 

AWR: You stated in other articles that ‘Amr Ibn Al ‘Aās played a role in nurturing tolerance in Egypt. You also focus on the positive side and sometimes ignore the negative side.  

 

BQ: Maybe that is a part of my nature, that I see the positives of a person rather than his negatives. This is Christian culture and how Christ influenced me. Do not judge, love thy enemies, this makes me always seek to look at the bright side.

 

Secondly, unfortunately the Copts did not understand Islam and Muslims. ‘Amr Ibn Al ‘Aās came first to Egypt as a merchant. He used to sell leather. He knew every ally and street of Egypt. He relied on Copts at the beginning. The mosque of ‘Amr Ibn Al ‘Aās was built by a Coptic engineer. The Arabs did not have construction skills. Copts used to manage the practical day to day affairs. Thus at the beginning Muslims were at peace with Copts. When foreign rulers entered into Egypt, who did not know Egyptian culture nor Islam well they started being unjust to Christians. That is why Copts feel bitterness while Jihadists would like to return to discriminating against Copts. I am positive because I believe that a ray of light can light an entire dark room and I believe that God is light. Religions came to bring light and not darkness. We need to look at the bright side and the full half of the cup rather than the empty half. 

 

AWR: If you would look at Islamic history and culture, what are its negatives?

 

BQ: The biggest negative is that many Muslims do not understand Islam. Islam did not come to collect jizyah or to enslave people. It is a sacred call for love and for faith. The al-Qaeda used it to kill , kidnap. Thus the incorrect understanding of religion by Muslims is the first mistake. 

 

The second mistake is that many Muslims think that they hold the absolute truth. Everyone that has a creed thinks that he holds absolute truth. But let us not forget that Imam al-Shaf’ī said “My opinion is right, but it may be wrong and the opinion of others is wrong but it may be right” The world is vast with its diversity. I am a lover of the program “Animal World” it shows you the diversity of creatures on the planet. 

 

AWR: How do you think dialogue can be started in the current circumstances, which parties should make concessions?

 

BQ: No party should make concessions. But there is an economic structure.  Let the people in Raba’ah continue their sit in for ten years as they want and let’s start on rebuilding the economy.  Oh government, please give attention to the unemployed. If we succeed in rebuilding the economy that shall be the biggest victory over the Brotherhood.

 

AWR: What do you think of the following three recommendations presented by the ICG (International Crisis Group): First, Morsi (Mursī) and other Brotherhood figures detained for political reasons since 3 July should be released?

 

BQ: What?  No, it’s not up to them. What about the criminal reasons. Morsi and Brotherhood figures are held provisionally for criminal acts, not for political reasons.

 

AWR: OK, what about politicians and security forces should agree on immediate de-escalation by restricting (not banning) protests;

 

BQ: Yes, I agree that in the third world we need restrictions to protests. In the US if there is something prohibited in a demonstration according to the law and a person commits it they stop him by force (figuratively, they break his legs).

 

AWR: What about curbing incendiary rhetoric.

 

BQ: I agree that the religious discourse is a big problem. Each shaykh and priest thinks he has absolute truth.

 

AWR: And closure of religious channels. Do you agree with the way it was done?

 

BQ: We should have a set of regulations for TV channels. They should not discuss creeds of other religions nor arouse sentiments of hatred.  

 

AWR: So you agree with closing it down?

 

BQ: No channels should be closed down, no pen should be broken. A list of rules should be put and one important condition: that the law should be applied firmly.

 

AWR: If a national dialogue is to have any chance of restoring a more normal climate, it will have to be broadly inclusive and empowered. Should it be facilitated by a credible third party, such as the European Union?

 

BQ: Never! The EU and U.S. should never intervene.

 

AWR: What about the UN?   

 

BQ: It is also the same as the U.S.

 

They have the money but not the rational or emotional capacity. The EU and the US only care about their interests. We are an impoverished, humiliated, ignorant, marginalized, beastly people in their views. No third party should intervene. If we didn’t know how to resolve our issues on our own then we should not deserve to live.

 

AWR: Would you like to say anything at the end?

 

BQ: I like to end the interview by this quote “Egypt is economically part of the third world after the wars have destroyed its economy. But Egypt is part of the first world in terms of culture and civilization.”

 

In a phone conversation on 15 August 2013 AWR telephone called Bishop Qulta and had this short conversation:

 

AWR: How do you view the violence of August 14th and 15th, burning government offices, police stations and churches? You stated on the 13rth that you didn’t fear a civil war. Do you fear this now?

 

There will be no civil war. Civil war is when a part of the country turns against the other part. This is not the case in Egypt. In Egypt, the people are united against a certain group that doesn’t represent more than 2% of the country. This cannot be called a civil war these are called [acts of] terrorism. With respect to the burning of the churches, I said today in the Akhbar newspaper that “burning of the churches makes us [Christians] proud, because we are contributing to the liberation of Egypt.” (Read article in Arabic here.)

 

Yosra El Gendi

Arab-West Report

August 15, 2013