Q: Is the learning center for Eritrean refugees part of the church?
A: Yes, the Eritrean learning center is part of the church. This is the only Eritrean school we support. The Comboni missionaries also support a Sudanese refugee school in Abassiya. Both schools are part of the Catholic Church. The Comboni missionaries are working with Sudanese refugees in Sakakini and in Abbasiya and Eritrean refugees in Zamalek. I was working at the school in Sakakini for three years, but my superior changed me to Zamalek.
Q: What are the origins of the Eritrean school in Zamalek? Was it found at the same time as Sakakini?
A: Sakakini is officially recognized by the Ministry of Education in Egypt. This is because there is a good relationship between Sudan (including South Sudan) and Egypt. Sudan is a border country, and the school was established during the time of President Sadat. The idea was to give more possibilities to the Sudanese authorities to Islamize the Sudanese in Egypt. At that time this included North Sudan and South Sudan as they were just one country, so the partnership remained like that. Most of the refugees in Egypt are from Sudan. They are more than one million. We have registered Sudanese refugees at the UNHCR and we must add to that number the ones that are not registered. The Egyptian government knows that this is because they recognized Sakakini as an official school.
Q: Do you follow the Sudanese curriculum in both the Zamalek Eritrean school and Sakakini? Has it always been like that?
A: Yes, both follow the Sudanese curriculum. But the Zamalek Eritrean school is not official, it is not recognized by the Egyptian government. We would wish to be recognized but, you know, we needed to find another way to provide a recognized diploma, as those refugee students here are from Eritrea, and they cannot go to public schools in Egypt. Yes, they can go to private schools, but since they are refugees they cannot afford the costs as they are very expensive. So what we do now is that we follow the Sudanese curriculum in St. Joseph and prepare them for the Sudanese exam in grade 8. Once they reach grade 8 we register them under the Sakakini school so they can take the Sudanese grade 8 exam at the Embassy.
Q: Can they choose the language they want to take the exam?
A: Yes, it depends, For example in our Eritrean school we teach in English so they will take the exam in English. But at Sakakini we even have two sections. One section takes the exam in English and the other section takes it in Arabic.
Q: Can you please further elaborate on that? Do the students choose it when they enter high school? Is this section given in all the grades, or just high school, or just 12th grade? What do you do in the English sections? Is it about teaching all the subjects in English? Do you observe any difference between those students that take the exams in English and those that take it in Arabic?
A: Well, it is better to take it in Arabic, it is also easier. Why? You know the curriculum that the children are using and that is recognized by the Egyptian government is the one of North Sudan, not the one of South Sudan. And North Sudan is more Arabic, so they give more facilities to those that take it in Arabic, The examiners know that if you know Arabic it will be easier for you to go to the university. In theory, public universities are in English but in reality, it is mostly in Arabic.
Q: Do you know of any case of a refugee student entering a public university?
A: Yes, actually at the Sakakini school I followed a lot of students that are now at the university. I am trying to make connections to help them with the university fees, although these fees are not high.
Q: What is the role of the UNHCR?
A: In theory, the UNHCR is supposed to pay the school fees, they do it through the Catholic Relief Services (CRS) and they pay 1.200 EgP per student and per year, which really does not help us because the students receive the money at the end of the school year. We struggle a lot to get money from refugee families.
Q: Can I ask you how much you charge students?
A: It depends on the grade. The higher the grade, the more you will pay, for example, the lowest grades cost 700EgP/year while grade 8 costs 1.300 EgP per year.
Q: As you have only primary education, once children finish grade 8, do you have any kind of partnerships with other secondary schools, so they can assure that they will continue their education?
A: Well, there are other learning centers that offer secondary education, especially in Maadi. Our kids go there. Then they also have the possibility to go to private schools but you know, it is expensive. But we always give them the orientation. Now I was willing to go to the Salesians in Shubra, another learning center, and try to get a partnership so those students that do not want to do secondary education maybe can go to a school for the vocational track, learn mechanics or electricity. What we are now doing is connecting 6 or 7 of our students to go there to study.
Q: Would it be possible to get recognition from the Egyptian government for the Eritrean refugee school?
A: You see this is not easy, why? Eritreans here do not have any link with the Eritrean Embassy because the Eritrean government is very strict with Eritreans for leaving the country. The Eritrean government only allows you to go out of the country if you are 40 years of age or older. So Eritreans who want to leave Eritrea have to escape and pass through the desert to arrive here, and you know the desert is a traumatic experience. Many people have died here, girls are raped and sexually abused, bad things happen and Eritrean refugees arrive traumatized. The Eritrean refugees in Egypt do not want to have any connection with their country’s government. They feel persecuted by their own government. Government officials will ask them if they did their military service in our country. How did you get to Egypt? There are cases of Eritreans being sent to prison in Egypt for illegally crossing the border. Once they get out one of the first things they do is register at the UNHCR for protection and make sure that they will not be sent back. We are trying to help them, but we also need to be careful at the same time.
Actually what happens in Sakakini is, that as the Sudanese refugee community is so big in Egypt, the Sudanese Embassy has the potential to organize the official Sudanese exams. Those exams can be taken by any refugee, independently of nationality. But in Eritrea, this is not possible. I talked to one of the Eritrean bishops and he just succeeded to send me one Eritrean priest to help me a little bit, but until now, it has taken him 6 months trying to get his Egyptian visa ready, so I am afraid that they may declare him ‘persona non-grata’ and he will need to return. We need to be very careful. You see there is an Eritrean teacher here, sister Tereza. She is the head of the school and she helps me a lot. But more than that we cannot do…
Q: Can refugees from Eritrea that pass the Sudanese exam in grade 12 go to a public university in Egypt?
A: Yes, they can go because you are a refugee and you are doing the Sudanese exam, you can go to university independently of your nationality. The Sudanese curriculum and diploma is recognized by Egyptian public universities.
Q: Do you remember any case where an Eritrean refugee entered a university in Egypt?
A: Yes, I think in the past there were one or two. But most of them do not even go to university when they finish, because their dream is to go to Canada or to Europe or go another country. So most of them after studying look for a job. This is not just for going to Canada, but also because they need to survive, so it is difficult to study at the university level. This is also because of the Arabic. There are many things that stop them, but the main thing is the cause of life. The UNHCR gives them the yellow card or the blue card. A refugee might get some money from them but this is not enough. Indeed, many girls here at our Zamalek school are working as cleaners in private houses to earn some money and give it to their families. We know that many students work, and most of the time what we try to do is to act as a bridge between the employer and the student. We ask employers to pay at least 6.000 EgP per month but this often does not happen.
Q: I have heard some personal stories of Eritrean refugees that had passed the Sudanese exam for entering university but were rejected at the public university in Egypt. How do you feel about this?
A: Actually, to tell the truth, the Eritreans are facing a lot of troubles here, even renting a place is so difficult for them. Why? Because Egypt is an Islamic country, and most of the Eritreans are Christians, while North Sudan is more Muslim, Egyptians prefer to give priority to Muslim countries such as North Sudan. And add to this the lack of pressure of the Eritrean Embassy for their own nationals. You know in the case of the Sudanese Embassy, they try to make connections with the Egyptian government and help the refugee community here, but in the case of Eritrea, this doesn't happen. You know, I had several meetings with the Sudanese ambassador. He once visited the Sakakini center. He came to the church and saw everything, but with Eritrea, this never happened. The refugee students and their parents are also very frightened about the Embassy.
Q: Once the students finish grade 8, do you give them assistance about where they can continue their studies?
A: Actually, we have a partnership with Mr. Kees. We want CAWU to take students from Zamalek that finish grade 8. You know, in order to help them with UK education so they can go to study in Canada or wherever. And you know, Eritreans are the ones who need this international curriculum most. They face so many challenges here in Egypt, going to university, and even finding work. There are also students who once they finish here at St. Joseph’s, they do not want more education as they reached an age where they just need to fight for life. Sister Tereza and I, we are trying hard to push the government to recognize our school but at the same time, when it comes to recognizing something that has to do with Christian feelings it is not easy, so what we do is register our students at our Sakakini school. But our hope in the future is to have an official school, but this is complicated. One of the things that they will ask us is to come and see the place, and you know, this place at St. Joseph’s is not convenient for the students. There is not enough space, classrooms are too small, the building we use was actually a house. So if you do not have the required space of a recognized building it is impossible. This area of Zamalek is a very very expensive area. Maybe we can do something completely out of Cairo, but here in Zamalek, it is impossible. So basically our short-term solutions are at Sakakini, and the school of CAWU if we see that it is really going forward.
Q: Which is the main barrier that you encounter in running the St. Joseph Eritrean learning center?
A: For us the most challenging thing is money. Since Corona came many organizations no longer support us with funds. The Eritrean school is just financed by the church, but Sakakini has better financing, including the church, but also the UNHCR and Caritas and then we have another organization in Rome called ONS And then something that we do a lot is we travel to some places and collect money from our friends. Some years ago I went to France to do a missionary trip and I collected some money.
Q: When did you establish this school?
A: The Eritrean Zamalek school was founded five years ago but Sakakini was founded more than 20 years ago because of some of the students already finished university. Even some of them became teachers and are now teaching in Sakakini.
Q: Are the teachers in Zamalek from Eritrea? Do they have a university teaching certificate?
A: Yes, most of them are Eritrean refugees. We just have two teachers who are not from Eritrea, one from Kenya and one from Uganda. They both teach English. You know, most of the Eritrean teachers do not know English so they teach in Tigrinya which is not a good way, but we are doing all that we can do. When it comes to the title, some of them studied to become teachers in Eritrea, and some of them did not. So we just form them here to become good teachers.
Q: Do the students take annual exams at the Sudanese embassy?
A: No, they just take their exam in grade 8 at the Sudanese Embassy.
Q: And is there a limited number of children that you can register to take the exam every year?
A: Actually no, I mean there are not many students that finish grade 8 and want to do the exam. For example, this year we only have 8 students enrolled in grade 8. And well, maybe not all of them will do the exam, because you need to pay 150 dollars to do the exam Moreover, if you already failed the exam, the parents distrust it and are not willing to pay again such a huge amount of money. And if you fail it three times you are not allowed to do it again. It is difficult. I try to encourage them to do the exam again, especially those that I see that are capable but parents cannot support them. I even support them economically, we really try to help them.
Q: Do you teach the Christian religion?
A: We teach Christianity and Islam, both religions and at Sakakini it is the same. We are not choosing that. It is the Sudanese curriculum. The government tells us which contents we need to teach them.
Q: How do you feel about the Sudanese curriculum? Do you think it is better than the Egyptian one?
A: The Sudanese curriculum is very good, they are learning very very well. And there is a big difference between the Sudanese curriculum and the Egyptian curriculum. The Sudanese curriculum makes the kids reflect, instead, the Egyptian curriculum makes the children report what the teacher said. Why? It is the Islamic way to do things, to recite the Qur’an for example. But in the Sudanese curriculum we try to understand, we ask questions, and we make students reflect and think. And we have students that have really succeeded and are very wise at studying. You see, when Sudan became divided in two, South Sudan abandoned the Arabic language to take the English language, so South Sudanese refugees have very strong English.
Q: Can you clarify this, is the Sudanese curriculum officially from South or North Sudan.
A: It is from North Sudan. South Sudan has another curriculum and this curriculum is not recognized by the Egyptian government.
Q: Are Sudanese children able to access public education in Egypt?
A: According to the law they are allowed, but in reality no. This is actually a problem with the UNHCR. They asked us to send the Sudanese students to a public school so the UNHCR does not need to give them monetary support for paying the school fees. We also want that but the thing is that when they apply to a public Egyptian school they are not accepted. In private schools, refugees are accepted, but it is unaffordable. I always try to explain to the UNHCR that we are doing this because the government is not facilitating sending the Sudanese refugees to public schools. It would also be to our benefit to have the kids in public schools, I mean we need to pay the teachers, feed them, and everything.
Q: And how do you feel about the UNHCR and its role in refugee education?
A: I am sorry but people work for their interests, I have had a lot of meetings with the UNHCR to discuss the fees. And sometimes they buy us those things for the children so they can play. We have a school full of those things. I don't even know where to put them all but we do not need that. In total, the Sakakini, Zamalek Eritrean learning centers, and Arba-wa-Nus center serve around 1000 children. In the morning we need to feed them all. Some of them come in the morning without eating anything at home. Their mum just wakes up in the morning and brings them to school, then the mum goes to work. They used to finish their work at 7 pm. Some of the children that are old enough can go home alone, but the youngest children just stay here at school, waiting for their parents to come. So the situation has become very complicated for us. We exposed the situation to the UNHCR, asking them for money, and food. But they just give us money for the school fees, like 1.200EgP, and it is not even useful as they give the children the money at the end of the school year. We cannot sustain the school like that. It is also difficult because outside the school the children fight with each other, get sick, they face racism.
With Corona, this became worse. Most of the Sudanese mums that were working lost their jobs in cleaning houses. These people are living from their daily income. Many of them lost their jobs, they had to pay for the rent of their houses, food, and the only place where they could go was the church. The church was full of people asking for food, sugar, tea, etc. One thousand three hundred families were asking for food, and for some of them, we even paid the rent.
Q: How many students do you have at the Eritrean learning center?
A: We had 244, but let’s check in the computer. This year we have 165 students. You see, the higher the grade is, the fewer students we have. You see, grade 2 has 32 students, in grade 3 we have 27 students, in grade 4 we have 25 students, in grade 6 we have 26, in grade 7 we just have 5, and in grade 8 we have 11.
Q: Can you guess from those students in grade 11, how many will pass the exam for accessing secondary education?
A: I guess just 2 or 3.
Q: Is attendance compulsory?
A: Yes, if they do not come we expel them.
Q: Do you take Ethiopian refugees?
A: No, just Eritreans, I do not know what Ethiopians do.
Q: They pay 1000 EgP in school fees?
A: Yes, this year they pay 1000 EgP. Some students pay less, this is because they asked for help from the UNHCR, this 1.200 EgP is paid through the CRS. It is low cost, but this is the thing I was talking about. With these fees, we are not able to provide our teachers with a good salary, and many of them are even thinking about going to search for a new job.
Q: How much do you pay the teachers?
A: We pay now 1.600 EgP/month and this is much too little. But you know, many of the teachers are here because they do not have another option. Actually, for the female refugees from Eritrea, it is easier to obtain a job than for the males and they are well paid if they receive 5.000 EgP or 6.000 EgP/month. But for the men, they might find something in a shop to carry heavy things. That is hard manual work and they might earn less than 2000 EgP/month, so some come here to teach.
Q: Do you have shifts?
A: No, we used to have shifted but now with the corona pandemic, we do not have so much money, so we cannot afford shifts anymore to pay the teachers and everything.
Q: And do you have more demand than offer?
A: Yes, this year especially. When Corona came we stopped providing education for one year, so the kids in grade 8 could not take their exams. They needed to stay at school one more year. No seats have been freed. And to this, we must add the problem of space. This year we had one classroom less as we had a problem with water, an inundation, and the smell is really bad. I tried to fix it somehow but it was not enough. It keeps smelling too much. Now I am working on a project to ask for some money to see if there is a possibility to fix it, especially with the Embassy of Poland. What we have done this year is maybe just look at which grades we have fewer students, and allow new students to enter at this level. You know, for example, a grade starts with 20 students but at the end of the year five seats are empty because students have left, for example, to travel to other countries and not finish the grade, so we have the possibility to let new students enter.
Q: When someone new enters, do you do a placement test?
A: Yes, when they arrive from Eritrea we ask for the level they completed. When they do not have any documentation we sometimes do an exam to see in which grade they are.
Q: And how do you feel about your donors?
A: You know, it is too difficult. They want us to give them all the receipts and documents, and this is also difficult because here in Egypt many sellers in the market do not provide us the receipts so they do not need to pay taxes. They avoid the taxes that they need to pay to the government. But it is not just about money. When I have someone who is really sick at school, what can I do? You know the Eritrean students are also very sensitive. They avoid being controlled, they avoid Facebook, social media, everything. Because even if you are here, if the Eritrean government knows that you are here they will go to persecute your family in Eritrea.
Q: How do you feel about Egyptian schools being crowded?
A: The reality is that the public schools in Egypt are very crowded, so how can they accept foreigners? And you know they also are very focused on promoting Islam through education, so they won’t allow non-Egyptian Christians to enter public schools, let alone start speaking in English. Moreover, their mentality is also very complicated. They see Africans as the ones who are supposed to be slaves, who are inferior, and so the children fight, and even the parents would complain if Egyptians were mixed with Africans, even in the church we sometimes have Egyptian parents coming to complain.
Q: You are doing a great job, are you doing this alone with sister Tereza?
A: No, you know, we are a congregation of priests. We are many priests, in this Zamalek parish we have 4 priests, 1 assistant parish priest, and 2 collaborators, sister Tereza and Father Zeizies. There is Father Simon, who is the director of the Combony Institute, each one of us has his/her own duties. Those two collaborators are helping me a lot with the Eritrean school. They are the only ones who know Tigrinya, so when I go to school I need a translator, when I do the ceremony for marriage and other events I also need a translator.
