AN refers to Answer James Natalie and AB refers to Answer Boutrous. Father Claude introduced me to them.
Q: The Sakakini school is the first refugee school in Egypt?
AN: Yes, it is the first one, officially founded in 1989 together with African Hope and Saint Andrews Refugee Services (StARS). The director at that time was father Cosimo, he is now in Italy.
Q: Why did you decide to open the school in Sakakini?
AB: Because the number of refugees at that time was increasing exponentially.
Q: If your students come mainly from Sudan and South Sudan, why don’t they access public schools if legally, they are allowed?
AB: Yes they are mainly from Sudan and South Sudan, but we also have some Eritreans, Ethiopians, and other refugees from other nationalities. We do not want to leave anyone behind. But the thing is that they come here because in reality they are not allowed to access public Egyptian schools. First of all, they face this bureaucratic racism, if they want to enter they need to provide the authorities with a lots of documents that some of the refugees do not have as they were just escaping. For example, the birth certificate, or the residence certificates may be missing, and this is a problem because some of the refugees have their files closed at the UNHCR Moreover, they are also sometimes rejected because of their age. Secondly, they also face this social racism from the other students and also sometimes from the teachers. So most of our students do not even want to go to those schools, and they prefer to come here.
Q: When Sakakini started you were just following the Egyptian curriculum?
AN: That is true, from the beginning we were using the Egyptian curriculum, but then in 2006, after the peace agreement happened in Sudan, we tried to change the curriculum to the Sudanese one. From 2006 and 2008 we were trying hard and in 2008 we finally got approval from the Ministry of Education in Khartoum as a governmental Sudanese school in Egypt, so we were allowed to follow their curriculum.
Q: Why did you change the curriculum?
AB: We changed the curriculum because the students that were sitting for the Egyptian exams for entering university, even if they passed, they were not allowed to enter because of their nationality, so they were studying for nothing. During that time many of our students were living on the street, and gangs were created. Also, as we had no recognition from the Ministry of Education in Egypt as a governmental school, we were also not allowed to do the exams as a school, so we needed to register the students as ‘individuals that prepared themselves on their own,’ and this was much more expensive, and at the end, just a few could do this exam because many were rejected because of their age, or sometimes they were rejecting them because there was no space in the areas where they did the exam. And also they were asked for their residence permit. At that time around 90% of the refugees were not registered at UNHCR, because between 1995 to 2005 many of them were just in Egypt for a temporary period, but after 2005 when Egypt became a country that could have refugees permanently, then they started to register at the UNHCR for getting money and some help.
Q: And since 2008 you are following the Sudanese curriculum from Khartoum right?
AN: Yes, so they go to the Sudanese Embassy to do the exam in grade 8 and senior 3. Once they pass grade 8 they can go to high school. And for the senior 3, once they pass they can enter university. The Sudanese curriculum is much easier, everyone can do it without problems.
Q: You were the first school to think about this new system right? And how did you process its implementation?
AN: Yes, we organized ourselves, we created a committee, we wrote our proposal that also included the complaints of the students and parents, and then we met the ambassador of Sudan of that time, and we shared with him this idea and he accepted this. He spoke with the Ministry of Education in Egypt and they got this partnership.
Q: What happened in 2011 when South Sudan separated from Sudan?
AB: At that time, the government of Khartoum told the government in Juba that the situation would remain the same, that South Sudanese could continue studying, but that the maIn responsible for that would be Khartoum and that they would be treated as sort of ‘foreigners.’
AN: Let me explain it better so you can understand it. For example, Sudanese pay the same university fees as Egyptians, but South Sudanese pay the university fees for foreigners.
For example, this year for foreigners you pay 550$/year if you want to do the exam for going to university. And if you are from Sudan you only pay 80$. And for grade 8, those from Sudan pay 130$ and foreigners to pay only 150$, this is very reasonable.
Q: How is the ministry of South Sudan involved in this process?
AB: The Ministry of Education in South Sudan is willing to be involved, but for that, we should change the whole school functioning and this is time and money, like for example we teach in Arabic, and if we decide to take the South Sudanese exams we should also teach the South Sudanese curriculum, that is in English, shifting teaching from Arabic to English is not feasible. But I really think that the Ministry of Education in Egypt would be fine with accepting the South Sudanese curriculum and bringing the South Sudanese exams. You know, there is a partnership with South Sudan as it is past heritage when South Sudan and Sudan were united.
Q: Do you offer kindergarten, primary and secondary education?
AN: Yes, we have two classes for KG who wear the red uniform, then primary who wear the blue uniform, and then secondary, senior 1, 2, and 3, who wear the blue uniform. But this year the Ministry of Education in Khartoum has changed the way grades are organized and they have introduced the intermediate school. That means that primary would no longer be from grade 1 to grade 8, now primary will be from grade 1 to grade 6, then we have three years of intermediate schools, and in grade 9 the students take the exam for entering secondary school. This will start in September 2022.
Q: How many students do you have?
AB: We have 587 students
Q: And how many teachers?
AB: We have 41 teachers
Q: And do you do shifts?
AN: No, we have just one shift from 7:30 am to 5:00 pm
Q: The teachers that you have qualified?
AN: Yes, all of them graduated from University, some of them might not have teachers' diploma, but they have degrees.
Q: Can I ask you how much you pay the teachers?
AB: Well this depends on the experience that they have, the lowest salary is 2.000 EgP and the highest is like 2.300 EgP.
AN: Yes, but I just want to clarify that teachers do that as it is a vocation for them. They want to help, they are sort of volunteers because their salary is very low, but they also understand that given the situation it is impossible to pay them more. We just serve our children.
Q: How much do you charge the kids for school fees?
AB: The children pay to depend on their level, it starts from 1.300 EgP and then the senior level 2.000 EgP/year,
Q: What do you think about community schools that are not affiliated with the church?
AN: These schools are facing a lot of problems, because of the high rent overall, they do not have money, then they charge more school fees for the kids, but then the parents also do not pay these school fees, so they have even more debts. It is like a vicious circle. Also the teachers, sometimes they cannot pay the teachers, so they get their salaries two or three months late, and many teachers do not want to be there, and they just take someone who is not qualified.
Q: These community schools are part of the teachers union, is Sakakini also part of the South-Sudanese teachers union?
AN: We have around 32 learning centers under the umbrella of South Sudan and the rest might be for Eritrean, Ethiopia, Syrian, Yemeni, and Nigerian students. But the majority of schools are secular, not under the church. Under the church I just know five schools: Sakakini, our branch in Arba-Wa-Nus, Central Learning Center under the church in Nasr city, then African Hope, St. Andrews (StARS), and the last one is Matariya Adventist. We know it because they are part of our teachers' union.
Q: Can you give me an approximate number of learning centers in Cairo?
AN: Yes, it is around 190. This includes learning centers for refugees from different nationalities like Iraqis, Syrians, Yemenis, Eritreans, Ethiopians, Sudanese, and many more. I know that Syrians have four or five schools. But you know even in the South Sudanese schools we have also Eritreans.
Q: Which religion do you teach?
AB: We teach Islamic and Christian religions, we split the class, if they are Muslims they take it in Arabic, and if they are Christians they take Christianity, but the majority of our students here are Christians.
Q: Do you know how many South-Sudanese learning centers are recognized by the Ministry of Education in Khartoum?
AN: I know that it is around 14.
Q: Do you have a partnership with UNHCR?
AB: Well we have a partnership with the Catholic Relief Services (CRS). One student receives 1.200 EgP in school support per year, and the student needs to go there and apply for it. Many students come and ask us to give them a paper that shows that they are enrolled here, and then they show it at CRS, and they give them the money.
Q: How many students passed last year's grade 8 exam in St Joseph Eritrean learning center in Zamalek?
AB: Last year in Zamalek the children in grade 8 sat for the exam for the first time, they were 9, and only 2 passed, 7 failed.
Q: Do you have any case of a non-Sudanese entering a public university in Egypt with the Sudanese curriculum?
AB: Yes, she is from Cote d'Ivoire, she has finished university.
Q: I know cases of Eritreans that went to Wafidin and were rejected.
AN: Why? Maybe he did not have good documentation.
Another teacher: I think it is a problem with the scholarship, I mean Wafidin is the place where you go with a scholarship, and maybe there are no scholarships from Eritrea. If you want to study, you have to study with your own money, which would be around 600US dollars/year. South Sudanese who have blue card do not get a scholarship from the South Sudanese government, maybe from the UN, but not from South Sudan.
AN: I think it might have been a bureaucratic problem. For example, you need a valid passport, the physical one, or a birth certificate, and many refugees do not have those documents.
Q: Can you further elaborate on how scholarships function?
Another teacher: The thing is that Egypt and Juba have an agreement. Every year Egypt says we accept like 100 South Sudanese students to come to study in Cairo, and Juba offers them scholarships. There are different types of scholarships, some just cover one academic year and if you do well you might get more, other scholarships cover the entire university curriculum, and others just half, it depends. But even if you do not have a scholarship and you are from South Sudan, you are supposed just to pay 10% of the university fee for international students.
Q: Does this also apply to South-Sudanese who have the blue card for refugees?
AN: No, they pay as international students.
Q: This year how many students do you have at senior 3?
AB: This year 55 students, but last year we had 52. But they are divided into the science section and art section, they choose the section that they want in senior 3.
Q: How many people do you have in a class?
AN: We have around 35 to 40 students in one class.
Q: From the 52 students last year, how many passed the senior 3 exams?
AN: 48 from 52, we learn from our errors. You know earlier a lot of them were failing
Q: Do you feed the kids?
AB: They always have their breakfast five days a week, and three days a week they have mango juice, they love it. We also provide them with medical services.
Q: How many classrooms do you have?
AB: 20 classrooms
Q: Do you teach the students computers?
AN: Yes, we have a computer hall
Q: Do the kids also do sports as a subject?
AB: Yes
Q: Do you have a place for everyone?
AN: Yes, we do not have a waiting list.
They consider themselves the best refugee school in Egypt, they say that there is a good educational environment, and there is a seat and a table for everyone.
